Your Pleasure is Your Path

featuring artist & pleasure advocate Janette Casolary

We need to open up more discussion about what we find pleasurable in our lives, whether it’s outside, in the bedroom, or both. Because when we untangle harmful assumptions about pleasure, we also begin to fray away at some of the things tying us in knots when it comes to discomfort around sex. Which is why Janette Casolary, a queer artist from Seattle and someone we would label as a pleasure advocate, joins us for a discussion on how we can each access pleasure more in our personal lives.

There’s a lot of times it’s important to stay on trail-- but exploring what gives us pleasure isn’t one of them. This is one path that’s totally yours.

Featured in this Episode:

Janette Casolary

Let’s be friends:


Hosted by Laura Borichevsky.
Cover artwork by Hailey Hirst.
Music by The Wild Wild and LWFI, licensed via MusicBed.

TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript was lightly edited and created using a transcription service. As such it may contain spelling errors.

Janette Casolary:

One of my favorite things is eating mangoes on the beach. And it's like, you know, when you like, just bite into a juicy mango and it's like juices dripped on your body, like, it's my favorite thing to do on the beach. Because when you actually eat it, you like, let the juice down on you. And it's fine. Cause you just get to go in the ocean. Not that that's really why it is what it is, but I just love juicy shit. It makes me feel supple and yummy and good.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Have you ever been asked what gives you pleasure? What’s something, anything-- the first thing-- that comes to mind if you had to answer right now? Do you find yourself panicking at not having an answer, or judging yourself if what’s top of mind doesn’t feel “sexy” enough? If your answer isn’t even necessarily sexual at all? Well, that’s okay. Because for one-- you don’t have to have an answer right now. And secondly-- perhaps most importantly-- is that there are so many paths to pleasure, so it’s less about choosing the “right” answer, and more about choosing the answer that’s “right” for you. Maybe pleasure is about a place, or a type of touch, or something you listen to. Maybe it’s about eating juicy mangoes on the beach, like it is for Janette Casolary, a queer artist from Seattle-- an indoor/outdoor boudoir photographer, a facilitator, and someone who I would personally label as a pleasure advocate. 

Now, to be fair-- it’s not exactly like I sprung this question on Janette. In fact, she and I have been close friends for quite a while now, and since we met in college, the very nature of our relationship was based around sex education and advocacy in one form or another, and as we’ve gotten older I can say it’s a very lucky thing that pleasure and sex are topics that come up *most* times we hop on the phone. I say lucky because I know that a lot of folks don’t have a friend like Janette-- which is one of the reasons this community exists.

So here’s the thing: we need to open up more discussion about what we find pleasurable in our lives, whether it’s outside, in the bedroom, or both. And I know-- the word “pleasure” has been prescribed and commodified to the point of it being a word that actually scares a lot of people, for some very valid reasons… but the reality is that pleasure is something we each have the power to access in our own individual ways. In fact, pleasure is *so* foundational to talking about sex that it felt almost necessary to have this conversation up front. Because when we untangle harmful assumptions about pleasure, we also begin to fray away at some of the things tying us in knots when it comes to discomfort around sex.

And it takes some willingness to meander a bit, potentially even divert from what we’ve been told is the norm. I mean, there’s a lot of times it’s important to stay on trail-- but exploring what gives us pleasure isn’t one of them. This one path that’s totally yours.

Let’s do some wandering together. I’m Laura Borichevsky, and this is Sex Outside.

Janette Casolary:

If we take away any and all ideas of what's supposed to happen, what certain body parts are supposed to do, what body parts are supposed to feel good and not good? Like what we like done to them, then we actually have this expansive playground. And I'm like, that feels liberating to me.

Laura Borichevsky:

As I mentioned, Janette and I talk about pleasure often… but in all honesty, even as a close friend I’d never asked her what pleasure even means to her. Which was a great place to start.

Janette Casolary:

You know, this is going to sound really simple, but pleasure to me right now just means anything that feels good. And that can be from just a very simple, like, ugh, I'm cozy in my bed. This is so awesome to like a big like yes. Feeling everything in between. So it's just like all the little, all the big, anything that feels good.

Laura Borichevsky:

It's really freeing to hear you say that. Like when you started talking about that just now and saying like, just anything that feels good. I think that so many of us don't focus on that enough, you know?

Janette Casolary:

Totally. I used to think like pleasure had to be like sexuality focused. Like you have to feel juicy and turned on and like that's what pleasure is. And I'm like, pleasure literally at its simplest form is like, whatever feels good in any realm. And I'm like, wow, that makes it so much more expansive and easy to access.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. Well, and to your point too, like you said, if we look at pleasure as just one prescribed thing or one set of prescribed things, it makes it harder to access that we can access these things in small steps. Right. So if it's like, if it seems unattainable, cause you're like, I'm really not feeling like, you know, quote in the zone for feeling pleasure right now. Like when you think about it in terms of prescribed sexual pleasure and it's like, okay, well that's just not something that's attainable for me. But if you think about it in terms of like, yeah, how do I make myself feel good right now? That's something that you can build on. And yeah, it might be something that ends up, you know, driving itself into the sexual realm as well, but it doesn't have to, and that's still pleasure. Totally. I love that. What are you currently finding pleasure in

Janette Casolary:

Like the most immediate current is I am in the middle of like eight pillows on my bed and a lot of blankets.

Laura Borichevsky:

Is that where you're doing the interview?

Janette Casolary:

Yes! Where are you?!

I love that. That is exactly how I would want you to be having this interview. Um, I'm sitting in my office actually--

Janette Casolary:

Naturally!

Laura Borichevsky:

And it's interesting to pick that apart, right? Because part of it is like I had to sit in my office because that's where I know I'm going to get the quiet sound that like we've created a space so I can have a protected environment to be able to do interviews. But yeah, I mean, like this morning I put on jeans because I was like, well, I want to take today more seriously because I have a recorded interview, but I wasn't thinking about being comfortable. And like, I certainly wasn't thinking about my own pleasure when I put on these jeans. So just as an example, like very different situations here and yeah, you can experience pleasure and put that as a priority in your life and still take an interview. And I think that that's really great.

Janette Casolary:

Totally. I mean, I kind of fell into a trap this morning of thinking, okay, I have this interview. I was a little bit nervous about it. And I was like, okay, I have to do all these things to make myself feel good. And I kind of had this weird pleasure prescription in my head. And I was like, you weren't turning this into a homework assignment and that's not fun. So like try again. And I made myself a frozen trader Joe's pizza for breakfast. I sat and read, I journaled a little bit. And now I'm in a very loose crop top and period underwear. It's sitting in my bed talking to you and I'm so happy. It feels so good.

Laura Borichevsky:

And just listen to how you turned all that around. Right? Like it didn't take that much. It started by listening to your body and then the actions that followed really weren't that big of a stretch. Right? Like you didn't even have to leave your own home.

Janette Casolary:

Totally. I mean, for me it's more just about taking off the expectation of what I think I'm supposed to be doing and actually just doing what feels good to me in the moment.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. Well, and that reminds me of something that you've talked a little bit about before that came up. The last time we talked where you said, if you follow your pleasure, you'll be on your path, right? And that could be like the larger life path or it could be the path of like, yeah, your morning now and how you're setting yourself up for your day. Can you expand a little bit more on this? Because I think that it's a really powerful statement and I wanted to dive into it a little bit with you.

Janette Casolary:

Yeah. I have like kind of a really, really simple, and then I'll delve into it a little bit more, but I think that for a lot of us at the end of the day, we just want to feel good and the easiest simplest way to feel good is to fill your life or your time or your day with things that feel good to you. So just like very, very, very like, here's the dot, here's the point. Here's how you do it. But I mean, obviously it's more complex than that. And on like a little bit more of like a spiritual, like, yummy feeling of that. Like I really think that all of our desires are Holy and when you follow those things, you're actually like coming closer to your heart. So I like to think a lot about the purpose of life and I've never like, “Oh, this is it right.”

I don't think there's a way to know what the purpose of life is, but there's some beauty in that meaning you get to kind of try on different ideas. So I had tried on this idea of like, what if the purpose of life is just to feel good? So it was kind of fun playing with that because if let's just say that's my framework, then that means that like every single thing that I crave is like, it's a clue or like a vehicle to be more in alignment with my joy or like to be closer to my heart or my purpose. And I think for me now, the idea that I'm playing with is like the purpose of life or the purpose of my being right now is like actually to simply just be and to feel and to experience and to exist.

And I definitely think that pleasure is a huge part of that. And that is always something I'm going to be moving towards. And if you're moving towards pleasure to allow what is in that, like you're already there. So like it takes it away from being a destination. So you think of, “Oh, I'm seeking these things or I'm doing these things in order to feel good. But if you're already doing things that feel good”, then you're already there. So it's like, you're not in search. You just are. And your being, and for me, it's like the nuance with that comes with this idea of it's important to remember that it doesn't always feel good and that's okay. And that doesn't mean you're out of alignment or not in integrity. It's just like, it's perfect. And that means like you're still on the path. Like you're not doing anything wrong.

So I think that's a huge thing that I have been reflecting on in the past few years. Like just because something doesn't feel good, it doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. It just means that you're being in the feeling. So I think I've shifted my focus on like allowing what is and seeking pleasure and joy to like be central to my life. So it's not just, I'm either enjoying and I'm doing the thing and I'm in alignment or I'm not. So it's, I seek pleasure as much as possible. And I also allow what is, and I get to actually hold that in grace and tenderness and the richness of being alive and being a human and having feelings. And that feels a little bit less pressure to me, honestly. And like more fun and more ease

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, I hear that. And it lets go of a lot of those expectations and reminds me a lot of what, you know, we talked about at the very beginning right. Of just like making pleasure more accessible by just allowing ourselves to feel. And I think we're really conditioned to shut ourselves off from feelings because they're supposed to look a certain way, right? Like that's in quotes or are there then, you know, supposed to feel a certain way. And at the end of the day, our feelings are still what they are. And so when we shut off ourselves from feeling things that we think are out of alignment, not what we would want for ourselves based on whatever society says or what our family says or friends say, or community says, we also are shutting ourselves off from really beautiful rich feelings. Right? Like whether it's pleasure or yeah. Learning about yourself in some other way to say like, yeah, that actually wasn't pleasure for me, but that's a feeling and that's good that I recognize that. So I'm still on my path of figuring out how I continue to follow that and follow my joy and my pleasure. I think that's a beautiful thing.

Janette Casolary:

Totally. It's like what is, is, so you're either going to fight it or are you going to be with it? And I would rather be with it.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, totally. You know, I've never told you this, but I'm glad I met you in my life when I did, because it's really set my life on a beautiful trajectory of just having somebody like you and having a friend and a presence in my life who has always been open to talking about pleasure. Like with me, like as a friend and just like being there and being that person because I realized later in life that not everybody has that person. And that's actually one of the reasons that this podcast exists now because not everyone has that person or that community. And it can feel really isolating and confusing and lonely. And I know that you haven't been talking about pleasure for forever. So I'm curious to hear a little bit about what your relationship has been like to pleasure and how you've started down that path to begin with.

Janette Casolary:

Oh yeah. I mean, this is, like you said for yourself, this for me has been a very long, long, long journey, right? Like I've always had senses, so I can always feel like throughout my life, but I have definitely been on the path of not only seeking pleasure, but giving myself permission for it for years. And it has been like a constant undoing and unfolding and like peeling back the onion kind of a thing, because I feel like at the end of the day, it's really easy for me to say like, you deserve to feel good. You're worthy of pleasure. Like your life gets to feel good. Your pleasure matters. Like all of these things like both in really simple moments, but also in like central on the sexual context, you know? But it has been a really long time of me untangling, patterning and messages that were a hundred percent the opposite of that.

So ideas like, you know, my pleasure doesn't matter. Or like I put other people's pleasure before mine. Or like if other people don't feel good, then you shouldn't feel good. It makes you really bad person to feel good if somebody else potentially doesn't or it doesn't matter whether I feel good in sex or not. Like there are a lot of things that it seems really easy to say like, well, yeah, duh, your pleasure matters. Um, but somatically, it has been a huge, huge undertaking and I'm still working on it. I don't think I'm going to ever be at this apex of like, I allow all pleasure at every moment and I never have come up, but it feels pretty incredible. Be like, I am trying actually to change my cells and my patterning and the way that I move so that I can experience more joy and more pleasure in my life.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. What does that sometimes look like for you?

Janette Casolary:

That's a good question. A lot of times it's hard conversations. It's saying scary things. It's choosing differently. I feel like the two scenarios in which it comes up the most for me are related to money and to sex. So one example of something that is, or has been hard for me is like in regards to sex, it's like this idea that my body is supposed to want a certain thing or I'm supposed to be in a certain place. So let's just say my partner kisses me, my brain automatically thinks, okay, kissing is happening. That means that sex is going to happen. And I don't know if I'm ready for this yet. Like, I don't know if my body wants to, my brain will go into this spiral because it's been conditioned to think that this leads to this leads to this and like, what if I'm not there?

And then what, and again, it seems really simple to be like, you're allowed to just make out or you're allowed to make out or not make out, or like you can make out and not have sex or like you can make out, have sex and decide you really want to, or you don't really want to, but actually like giving myself permission to be like, this is actually an option for you is pretty monumental. And actually having conversations with my partner about like, okay, here's the shit that comes up for me. Sometimes when this happens, I freak out and I get into a fear response. And like, I need us to consistently out loud remind that like X, Y, and Z is okay. And like we're allowed to do dah, dah, dah, dah. And I feel like in the past that wouldn't have not been super comfortable for me, but it's like the more that I keep peeling back and the more that I kind of see like what my stuck points are or the things that hold me back, it's like, the more that I give voice to them, the less scary it is.

And it's just like, what is the framework? And for me, it's, I literally had to undo an entire framework of what sex was and how I related to it. I really do feel like those conversations have been huge for me to repattern because every time that I approach that I tell my body that I'm safe and I get to relax a little bit more. And that feels really, really good.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. One thing that stuck with me from the last time that we were talking on the phone, you said something about how pleasure is really one of those things. And like sex gets to be one of those things that is for you to feel good. And you're right. That can take a lot of different forms at a variety of different times, right? Like it can always be different like every minute of every day, what that might mean most for you. And the point is to feel good. And if you have a partner in your life, like there's a multidirectional there about what that looks like, so that you both are feeling good and feeling safe and held and making sure that the other person is feeling as good and safe and held as possible. And like, that's a part of it when it comes to like sex and pleasure it's for you to feel good. And that's a very simple but challenging thing for a lot of people to accept myself included. It's a big gift to have to give yourself. And that can be really tough sometimes.

Janette Casolary:

God, it's so true. Yeah. I feel like remembering that sexist for me was probably one of the most life-changing realizations, like feeling that cellularly, it was like, ah, yeah, totally sexist for me. Pleasure. I get to feel good. Yay. But the enemy of my body being like, “Oh no, this is actually for you. Like what do you want?” And that just hits differently.

Laura Borichevsky:

Absolutely. That's something that's tough to embody that it's very powerful, like in the moments that we do. And like on that note too, one thing that I was really curious to ask you that I think listeners would benefit from hearing are if you have any tips or ideas for folks who are looking to open up their senses and indulge them as one of those first steps to accepting pleasure as something that's just for you.

Janette Casolary:

I love that. I think it's really important to remember to just first of all, let it be really easy. It's easy to think that you're like, okay, this is the idea of what pleasure looks like. And I have to do X, Y, and Z and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then again, it becomes a huge homework assignment and your brain in which it gives you the opportunity to feel like you have failed in pleasure. Like I come back to that consistently where I'm like, I didn't do the 30 minute dance meditation. I didn't do my pleasure for the day. And I ended up disappointed in myself when really I'm like the trader Joe's pizza felt really great, like lounging in my bed for an hour after I woke up, felt really amazing. Like I think if you're actively trying to like bring it in, sometimes for me, the easiest thing is to tune into my senses.

Like whatever senses feel easy, accessible, pleasurable to you to be like, okay, what is something beautiful that I like to listen to? Like maybe turn on a good song, maybe light a candle, look at something great, tastes something delicious. Is it a sea salt caramel? Like, can you rub your skin really sweetly? Or can you take a warm bath? It's like, what are really tiny little tangible things that allow you to be in your body in ways that feel really good. That just feels sweet. That make you feel happy. Like a lot of times if I'm having a hard day, I'm like, okay, let's just bust them all out. And I will actually, like, I will make a list in my head and be like, okay, I want to like, look at something beautiful. I want to like, smell something I love. Usually for me, it's like sunscreen or rosewater. Both of those scents, we can be really happy. I want to taste something really delicious. So like how about bite of a cookie or like a cheese? It doesn't really matter what it is and I'll go through the list and I'll be like, if I do X, Y, and Z, all of these things, usually I end up feeling better. So that is one of the really simple ways just for me to like access quick, easy, tangible pleasure in my body.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. And to call it out as such, like, I think that there's something beautiful about that. Like when you mentioned like, yeah, just having like a bite of something that you really enjoy. I was like, well, I mean, I usually have a small piece of chocolate somewhere near the end of the day, but sometimes it's more of like, “I deserve this chocolate and I just need to eat this chocolate”. And I'm like, wow, where's the pleasure in that? Like, I can be enjoying that a lot more than being like, this is a gift to myself because I love this. And I can experience pleasure through eating a few bites of this chocolate. And that's really lovely. And it totally elevates that entire experience and allows you to take full advantage of it as what it is, right. It is. It's a moment of pleasure that you're giving yourself. And the more we become comfortable with identifying those moments and helping to create those moments for ourselves, the more we can find pleasure in other aspects of our lives too.

Janette Casolary:

Totally. Cause you can like eat the chocolate and you can be like, Oh, I deserve this chocolate. And like eat it and be like, Oh my God, it tastes good. You let it melt in your mouth a little bit. Like, what does it feel like, how does it melt, like to actually be present? And I'm not a hundred percent present all of the moments of pleasure that I do with myself again, lofty goals. But it's like, when you notice like, Oh, this actually tastes really good. And you pay attention to that, you enhance the experience. I also have this activity that I really like to do because sometimes I forget what I like. I'll get in kind of a funk and I don't even think about it. So every once in a while I'll be in a great mood and I'll make what I like to call the “fuck yes list”. 

And I make a random list of all of the things that you don't like stereotypically, you think about sex. And you're like, Oh yes. Oh God. Yeah. Right. All of the phrases I'm like anything in your life or anything that you can imagine that elicits one of those reactions gets to go on a yes. List. So like for me, juicy mango on the beach, swimming in the ocean, floating, Reggaeton, you know, like certain clothes, like, I don't know certain songs. It doesn't really matter what it is. It can be really big, really small, a way you'd like to be touched, like anything that makes you like, uh, like if it elicits a visceral response of like, you're like, mm, yes. Uh, like you feel it in your body, like that's when your body's like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And it's like the more yeses that you can bring into your life, you're just gonna feel better.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah… yes!

Janette Casolary:

Exactly.

Laura Borichevsky:

That's so true. Switching topics lately. I know that you told me that you've been reflecting lot on taking the hierarchy out of sex and I'd love to have a conversation about that. So what does that mean to you when you say taking the hierarchy out of sex?

Janette Casolary:

Yeah, to me that means the hierarchy would be any sort of conditioning related to sex in which you assume that this leads to that or something is better than another thing, or basically any expectation surrounding sex. And I'm finding that most of the patterning that feels harmful to me is, you know, derived from patriarchy, heteronormativity, like all of that. So I've been really being like, what are the things that even, I think don't work for me or like, what are the things that I feel like are stuck or need to be healed in me. And also is that even mine, because I think a lot of times, especially in sex, like for example, I had this story in my head that if I was not always ready, open, receptive, wanting X, Y, and Z type of sex, like something was wrong with me. And I just needed to fix it in order to be okay, in order to be better.

Like there was some gold standard of existence in the sexual realm. And while that might exist in a societal standard, like that's not real and it's not true. And it's not honest for me. So I've been really being like, what does it feel like, what does it look like to actually take all of the little things, put them in a jar, shake them up and spill them out. And like, what I mean by that is like, do I actually always have to be ready for sex in my brain and my cells. It was pattern. Yeah, absolutely. Especially if you're in a partnership and I'm like, okay, that is just not true. Nor would I ever want to put that in a partner? Like you don't need to be ready for sex all the time. That seems like, do you have to be open and receptive all the time?

Like my pussy is ready for sex all the time. And I'm like, absolutely not. Like, you know, my body like shuts down and it clams up. When I think about that or like just the idea alone of foreplay, like, Oh, I could go on literally an hour long tangent about how I hate the word foreplay, but everyone knows what I mean. It's like foreplay is non penetrative P and buggy sex. Right. It's like everything else is this foreplay. That's leading to what, to what, like some grand event. And like we have in our minds that there is, you know, this flow, this pathway, this channel to what is deemed good sex, real sex, like the best kind of sex. And it's like, Hey, not accessible to everyone. Be not what everybody wants. And like, see, not always the best, you know? And also like that gets to also be a grand event.

But I'm like, what if pleasure is a massage? Like what if the grand event is like a hot make-out? Like, what if it is like getting your neck kissed or your toes sucked? Or like, whatever, like maybe you like being fingered, maybe you like oral sex. Like what if we actually spun it around? And we didn't have this mental pathway and I can only speak from my experience, but that idea had been patterned into my mind so much that I literally thought I was broken if I didn't follow this exact trail. And then I realized I don't want to follow a path. Like, that's just not who I am sometimes. Sure. I'll take X, Y, and Z path to whatever. But I'm like, that's not how I like to play. That's not fun for me. Like, I don't like expectations, like throw them all away.

I never want to meet a partner in a way that I look at them in the eye and say like, “okay, this is what's happening”. I literally want to be like, “what feels good to you right now? Let's do that. Does it still feel good? Sweet. We'll keep going. What about this? How about that done? Okay, cool. Let's snuggle. That's awesome. Want to go make some food?” I just think that if we take away any and all ideas of what's supposed to happen, what certain body parts are supposed to do, what body parts are supposed to feel good and not good? Like what we like done to them, then we actually have this expansive playground. And I'm like, that feels liberating to me. That feels exciting to me. That feels like endless possibilities to me. And it's something that I still pick apart all the time constantly. I have at least monthly discussions with my partner about it right now. And it's cool. It's really cool to get to date somebody with the same framework that we're like tearing it all apart and throwing it back out and like seeing where it all lands and just playing.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. I've been nodding my head vigorously the entire time you've been talking about this. And one of the first reasons why-- well, firstly, I'm so glad that you have a partner who's down to do that too. Right? And I think that part of the reason that it can be scary to break apart those hierarchy of things, which yet definitely depends on patriarchy, a heteronormative binary. Like there are a lot of very oppressive things that like this hierarchy depends on. And yet we all follow this pattern. Or a lot of us have been taught to follow this pattern and some of us are trying to unlearn. It is partially for the reason you just mentioned, like, if you're doing this with a partner and you have a partner who is down to talk with you about this and hold conversations, there might be times because you're really exploring what feels good for you, that you find that you're not on the same page and it could feel awkward or uncomfortable in what we've been taught is already a series of awkward, uncomfortable conversations when we need and have to, and want to talk about sex.

And so there's like this greater unknown when the playground's more expansive, right. Of like, “Oh, well, if we're not on the same page about where we're going, then, like we're going to have to talk about it more. And I might be like, not actually hoping to fulfill your pleasure the way I want to. And I want to do it “right”, right? It's like, well, yeah, we can be talking more. And the other thing is our sexual health education. And this is speaking from like a US-centric perspective. But like in the United States, our sexual health education, at least what like you and I grew up with is abysmal. And it hasn't gotten much better from my understanding. And there are a lot of things working against it. And I mean, I remember in middle school, my first sex education class going through like literally a textbook of like, this is step one first you're kissing.

Then you're kissing with tongue. Then there's petting. Then you end up having oral sex. Then you ended up having penetrative sex. And it's like, firstly, yeah, none of that has to be true. It doesn't have to go that way at all. Some people don't want it to go that way. Again, this also depends on having a partner. This is through a very like heteronormative lens. Like there's a lot of assumptions being made here that are already really restrictive and oppressive, but like the other overarching thing that's wrong about all that is. Yeah. Where's the lay and the pleasure in that, like what is this?

Janette Casolary:

Yeah. Oh God. It is. At least for me, it is so uncomfortable. Like if you are a person that can really have a great conversation without your coming up, I'm like, Oh yes, congratulations. That's awesome. It really is amazing whether or not you just never had things put on you where you didn't feel like you could talk about it, but I'm like, it is a feat to be able to have uncomfortable conversations about sex. Like, I don't know about you Laura, but it's like, I was raised with the idea that like my body is meant to please other people. And it's like, if I don't fulfill that, like, I think you touched on this. If you don't fulfill that, then what? And then it's like, wow, is that really my purpose in the world? Like, is that really like what I am made for?

And that's not to say it, like, we don't want to potentially like give our partners pleasure. That's a different conversation. Like yes, of course. But it's like not your purpose as a human. I mean, yeah. And for me, like, I want to be very clear that like, it is a really deeply triggering topic for me. And like I cry every single time. Like in general, if I'm feeling it, like I will probably actually cry. It's deeply embedded. It's very emotional for me. It's highly sensitive and it is hard. And I think, you know, another thing to acknowledge too, I'm like, this is, there's a lot to say about safety. There's a lot to say about responsiveness. Like I'm in a situation too right now where like I am a hundred percent safe. I am safe to ask for what I want. I'm safe with my partner. I have a hundred percent responsive partner to my needs. Like even though I'm scared to bring up conversations, I know that I will be responded to. So that in itself is a huge gift and a privilege and not something that everyone gets to experience as well. So that is something that is a huge blessing to me in my life to like have someone to actually that with.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, no, you're totally right. I appreciate being able to have this conversation with somebody and to have this conversation be a part of a greater community that's starting to build, because I do think that these are the things that a lot of us have internalized and not talked about is like, yeah, we have been told that like pleasure is this thing you might encounter on your way from point a to point B while you're like having P and VG intercourse, like you said, or you only attain pleasure by being a certain way and like being quote unquote sexy. And that's how you have pleasure that it's always sexual. And these are like hard to attain sexual feelings that you get. And I think the underlying assumption for me anyway, that I've always internalized as like, if you're good at sex in like this certain prescribed way, then you get pleasure. And that's how it works. And it's very transactional. It's something we've all like really internalized and something else in that too is just the word sexy. Right. And you and I were talking about this recently as well, just like, what does sexy even mean? And like, what has that done? Like putting pressure on that word, I guess, like what has that done and what are your thoughts on the word sexy?

Janette Casolary:

I don't even know how I feel about the word sexy, which is kind of funny because I'm a boudoir photographer. Um, so I want people to feel sexy, but I'm like sexy. Doesn't look like a thing. I think we, again have these ideas. We've been told that sexy looks a certain way, or this is how to do sexy, but I'm like, sexy just is like, your energy existing is sexy. And I don't really have a word for it again, I'm like, “strip it all away!”. I literally am in a phase right now where I'm like throw it all away, which is funny because I don't actually want the feeling. I love feeling sexy. So I'm like, I don't want to actually throw away the feeling. I just, again, I think I'm just on a train right now to throw away all expectations and all roadmaps.

I'm just like what feels sexy, which means for me, what would it mean to feel sexy right now? I think for me to feel sexy, it would feel confident. It feels powerful. It feels embodied and it feels in flow. So for example, like when I start a boudoir session, I always sit people down and I remind them, there is no way to be sexy. You inherently are, let's let whatever energies want to exist, come up today and be, and let's flow with your body and let's be in sensation. And I think to be in sensation is a really cool place to play and like a spot to be in. But I don't really have any specific idea of what sexy is, because I just don't think that exists.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. No, it just, it just is. I appreciate you saying that. And with you being a boudoir photographer too. That's something I wanted to spend a good amount of time talking about because, well, for one, I love your photography. And I would say that I'm biased because you're a close friend of mine, but I'm not, you're just really talented. And I really love the work that you do. And I've also gotten to be on the other end of the camera and be someone that you shot before. And so I've gotten to experience what it's like to do boudoir sessions, and we've done all of mine outside or like when shoots have happened, they've happened outside or in like an open air setting. And so that's been like a cool blend of nature and pleasure and the sensuality/sexuality conversation. And one of the reasons that I first thought about you too, to have a conversation with me for this show, but can you tell me a little bit about your boudoir business, just off the top and then we can kind of go from there.

Janette Casolary:

I usually just say boudoir because it's a Googleable phrase. The more honest version of what I do is like, I love embodied portraiture. I love intimate portraiture and like sweet, tender, juicy, connected moments. I really love creating space for people to actually drop into their bodies and experience what that feels like. I think that we don't have a lot of spaces in the world to just exist as we are, and like to be in our bodies fully and permission to just show up exactly how we are. It's really important to me to create a space for that. So during my sessions, kind of, like I said, there's no right way to be sexy. I liked to lead people in embodied movement activities. So I have a phrase that I like to say a lot. It's like slow, like honey. And I ask people to close their eyes, to connect with themselves.

And I would say, whenever you get nervous, I want you to close your eyes. I want you to put your hands anywhere on your body. It doesn't matter. Or it could be on like the sheets or if there's a bed or whatever, I'm like, I need there to be points of contact. And I want you to actually just focus on the sensations under your fingertips. And I want you to slow down and I want you to move three times slower than you would naturally move and like move. Like you're moving through honey. And I think for me, it's really easy to kind of move through my day, but to have moments to actually really slow down, I'm like actually doing it right now, right now, my hands are on just my forearms. I have them kind of crossed, but I'm like really slowly dripping my fingertips across my skin.

And when you're focusing on that slowness and when you're focusing on what the actual sensation feels like, it's almost like the only place to be is here. And the only place to be is in your body. And to experience even three seconds of that in my day, it feels so good. And it's something that for me, needs to be intentional. I don't often find myself in that space without thinking about it. And maybe with more time than I would sometimes I just feel inflow. And that feels really great, especially when I'm potentially floating in the ocean, having really good sex, you know, but other than that, like taking the actual time to slow down and feel what it feels like to be in here as a different experience for me. So I like to craft an experience, not only for people to feel literally what they're feeling, but also to call in and breathe in that energy of whatever they're seeking.

Like I think it's profound to get to be in a space that is just for you again, like, I feel like all of these phrases are overlapping. It's kind of my jam right now where I'm like, this session is for you. So like, what do you want to feel? What do you want to hone into your life? Like, how do you breathe that into your body? And what does that feel like? What does that feel like embodied? So it's just a fun experiment. And again, there's no expectation of being anywhere. I like am very clear to let people know that there's nowhere to be. I don't need you to do anything. I'm going to suggest poses and stuff so that you don't feel like you're ever left hanging, but like, this is actually for you. And if something doesn't feel good, leave it. If something does feel good, great. If you want to do something else, just do it. But I think that if we created more spaces just in general in the world where people knew that they had permission to show up exactly how they wanted to in the moment and that it was okay, things would change.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Thank you so much to Janette Casolary for her time, honesty, and heart in this episode. You can see Janette’s truly stunning photography on Instagram @janettecasolary and on her website, janettecasoalry.com. Janette *also* created some bonus content with us last month sharing tips about how to be more comfortable and prepared when taking intimate photos outdoors, so make sure to give that a listen, too. We’ve got all of this linked in our show notes!

You can catch full episodes of Sex Outside every other week on Thursdays, and on the opposite weeks, you can hear brand new Nature Quickies, which are short, 5-minute dives into specific, practical topics about our bodies and the outdoors-- so stay tuned to catch a new one next Thursday. In the meantime, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, making sure you’re subscribed, or by sharing this episode with a friend you think might like it.

We also have a pretty great merch shop online. There are shirts, stickers-- even underwear. To see what it’s all about, head over at sexoutsidepodcast.com/shop.

Music is by the Wild Wild and LWFI.

I’m Laura Borichevsky. Thanks for joining us. Until next time!

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