The Not-So-Dirty Talk About Hygiene

with Kula Cloth founder, musician, & outdoorswoman Anastasia Allison

What’s the deal with our collective embarrassment around hygiene? How is sex and gender tied up into all of this? What happens when we don’t talk about hygiene openly? And-- just as importantly-- what happens when we do?

Anastasia Allison, founder of Kula Cloth, joins the show to dive into this, and we lean on our own personal outdoor hygiene stories and mishaps to illustrate that when it comes to hygiene, there’s nothing dirty about it-- and nothing to be ashamed about.

Featured in this Episode:

Anastasia Allison

Let’s be friends:

Hosted by Laura Borichevsky.
Cover artwork by Hailey Hirst.
Music by The Wild Wild, Red Licorice, Módl, and UTAH, licensed via MusicBed.

TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript was lightly edited and created using a transcription service. As such it may contain spelling errors.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Hey all-- it’s Laura. And we missed you! This is the first full episode of Sex Outside we’ve aired in nearly two months due to navigating online censorship, and the time away helped us to build some brand new components of this platform that will provide a wider variety of content, resources, and opportunities to connect while also mitigating risks of this community being displaced again in the future. 

If you want to find us on Instagram, we’re rebuilding our main account @sex.outside, and have two fun back-ups: @natureisalittledirty and @tinysexoutside. We recommend following at least two in case one ever gets deactivated again. You can also find us on TikTok @natureisalittledirty, and all the regular programming we had before on Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook.

More importantly though-- we’ve created a more closed online community that will act as our main hub for conversations, giveaways, future workshops, and bonus content, and it’s completely free to access and use. Simply head to community.sexoutside.org and see what we’re up to.

Thanks again for being here. It feels so good to be back-- and we’re happy to say that after all the time away, we have a lot of love to give.

Anastasia Allison: 

I sort of look at Kula and I recognize it's a piece of gear, but I think gear is just a vehicle to an experience where we can connect better with ourselves.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

That’s Anastasia Allison, and yes, she’s talking about outdoor gear… and yes-- this is still a sex podcast.

Anastasia is talking about Kula Cloth, which, for those of you who aren’t familiar, is a technical pee cloth that also has a variety of other functions for taking care of some of the most personal aspects of our hygiene-- whether you’re in the backcountry, on the road, or indoors.

And why is Anastasia talking about pee cloths in the backcountry, you might ask? Well, it’s quite literally her job.

Anastasia Allison: 

I'm the founder of Kula Cloth. I use she/her pronouns… aspiring dancer, maybe, you know, throw that in there. And just in general, maybe I'm sort of a, I don't know, like always curious about different things in life and constantly enjoying adventures. So that's probably the best way to describe me.

Laura Borichevsky: 

I think so too, although you forgot poet.

Anastasia Allison: 

Oh, poet-- and violinist.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Anastasia brings a lot of earnest conversation to the topic of hygiene. And honestly it's desperately needed because all of us manage various aspects of our hygiene on a regular basis. And oftentimes this includes our reproductive parts, but for as strikingly common, as it is to navigate hygiene, we're also taught to hide it, to be ashamed of it, to not talk about it. And as Anastasia points out, all of this energy spent on avoiding the obvious and treating it as something dirty can really take away from the other experiences we're trying to have outdoors for otherwise.

Anastasia Allison: 

And if we are worried about our hygiene or feeling shame, I think that that can maybe impede our ability to really deeply connect with who we are. And then also just the experience of like being outside and being in our bodies.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

So, what’s the deal with our collective embarrassment around hygiene, especially when it’s some of the more relatable, natural human experiences we’re bound to have? How is sex and gender tied up into all of this? What happens when we don’t talk about hygiene openly? And-- just as importantly-- what happens when we do?

Anastasia and I dive into all of this, leaning on our own personal outdoor hygiene stories and mishaps to illustrate that when it comes to hygiene and our bodies, there’s nothing dirty about it and truly-- nothing to be ashamed about.

So, let’s get things started. I’m Laura Borichevsky. And this is Sex Outside.

Because this entire conversation with Anastasia and myself started with the acknowledgement that there is so much about hygiene that we've been socialized to consider dirty and thus inappropriate or shameful to discuss in the open. I asked her to share where she thinks that narrative comes from to begin with.

Anastasia Allison: 

I think that hygiene is dirty to talk about because a lot of us probably have some heavy packs that we carry and have carried for most of our lives sometimes without realizing it we've picked up beliefs along the way that certain things with regards to our body or things that we shouldn't talk about or things that should be talked about in secret. And when we develop those types of habits or beliefs, especially at a really young age, we carry them along with us for the rest of our lives. So suddenly we can find ourselves as a full grown adult, feeling uncomfortable, asking somebody how to pee in the wilderness or thinking that talking about having your period is something to be ashamed of. I think a lot of it is maybe unconscious and we sort of get to this point in our life where it begins to grow conscious. Like we become more consciously aware that it's something we're really uncomfortable with. And so my own personal experience with that is something that inspired me in the creation of Kula cloth.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Well, and what was that like for you? Cause I know when we had our first conversation, you mentioned a backpacking trip and I don't know if that's where the story for you begins, but I know that was a moment that stood out to you, but yeah. What do you think that was like in your experience growing up with developing that discomfort that ultimately led to you wanting to break down some of that a little bit?

Anastasia Allison: 

You know, I still remember the day that I got my period and I cried, literally cried and I was so ashamed of it that I didn't want to tell anybody that it had happened. I don't think that that was something that was a burden placed on me by my parents. I think that it was just something that was very much talked about in secret and something that wasn't talked about very openly. My first backpacking trip that I went on, it was led by a man, a park ranger that I worked with actually. And although I didn't work with him directly, I had never been on a backpacking trip in my life. And I remember asking him what I should pack for the trip. And he said, oh, we'll just pack everything. You'd normally pack for a backpacking trip and bring an ice ax and crampons because we were going to go climb Mount baker, which as a side note, highly do not recommend that as your very first backpacking trip ever.

And I literally did not bring toilet paper with me because I didn't know that I needed to bring it. And I just didn't have the heart to ask somebody, how do you handle going to the bathroom in the wilderness and looking back on it now, it sort of seems silly and maybe like it should have been obvious, but I think there was a part of me that assumed that there would be toilets up there. And when I got up there and sort of realized my mistake, I felt so ashamed of myself that I literally stole toilet paper from my tent mate. And when I say that I stole toilet paper, I mean that I actually snuck into her pack, unbeknownst to her and took it. Like I didn't sort of metaphorically steal toilet paper. I actually see it from her. And to this day she does not know. And I was so embarrassed and so humiliated and really remember thinking like, I hope nobody else ever has to go through this again.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Yeah. Well, and the reality is like, so many of us have had to go through that and still do to go through that too. Right?

Anastasia Allison: 

Yeah. And I didn't know that. I think when you're in a situation like that, you tend to feel really alone. Like you're the only one in the world who's ever gone through this and it should have been more obvious. But as I've learned over the past few years with Kula, just hearing stories for people who have used the product and it has changed their life. I got an email once from a woman who told me that she intentionally dehydrated herself on hikes because she didn't want to have to pee outside because she didn't really know how to handle it. And when she read about the cooler cloth, it completely changed her life. And now she felt like a whole new world had been opened up for her because she felt more confident in handling her hygiene on the trail. And I just thought that must have been so lonely to be sort of living with that type of a question or worry.

Laura Borichevsky: 

I mean, I'll be honest, I've definitely dehydrated myself, not to an extreme level, but like I've done the bladder management math in my head before on nights so that I don't have to pee outside, which is interesting. Right. Because you start to unpack that and you're like, where does it come from? I know how and where to pee outside. And I feel comfortable in my knowledge and competence in that. So it's not a lack of knowing sometimes I guess it's because I'm nervous that someone else is going to see me. Like, I feel like there's not enough space where I wouldn't be exposed somewhere, which is also interesting because on other trips, like on a river trip, you have to pee in front of a lot of people sometimes. And like people just give you space to pee. So like, it's just interesting to think about what is it exactly or is it that I feel like I'm going to feel unclean? Like maybe I didn't bring a Kula or maybe I didn't, you know, have what I felt like I needed or I just, I don't know. It's interesting. I like don't want to feel like I'm going to have to take a shower immediately when I get home. And yeah, it's sad because being able to go to the bathroom is such a basic basic function. And when we're outside, we should be able to go and do the things we need to do in a natural environment if nowhere else. Yeah.

Anastasia Allison: 

There's not anything much more natural than having to use the bathroom. And yet it's this sort of secret thing. I mean, I remember even up until a few years ago, you know, peeing, I felt a little bit more comfortable with after a while, but if I had to go poop and I would leave my campsite, I was always trying to hide the little bag of toilet paper because heaven forbid, anybody knows that that's what I'm going out there to do. And there was just this sort of constant juggle of trying to hide the fact that I was still having normal bodily functions while out in the wilderness. And I really didn't understand why I felt that like, why is it such a shameful thing for me? Or why was it so uncomfortable for me to talk about? And is there a way that we could make it something a little bit less uncomfortable for people to talk about?

Laura Borichevsky: 

Yeah, definitely. You know, this whole conversation reminds me of when I was a kid, I was actually potty trained outdoors because I was scared of the toilet. It was just large and made a lot of noise and I was afraid it was going to like, I don't know, suck me down the toilet. So my mom started digging cat holes and putting like plastic butter containers out in our backyard in like bushy areas where I could just go to the bathroom, like one or two, whatever I needed. And it was great because that was the fastest way that I learned how to go to the bathroom. She didn't tell my dad, which was interesting because I think there's probably some shame or embarrassment that's scrapped up in that and why she didn't tell him, I don't think it was purely a miscommunication, but when he found out he was really shocked, he found me outside going to the bathroom in her garden and like, didn't know what was going on.

So I still have this memory of like, oh, the outdoors were really helpful for me to like, learn more about my body. But then also there still was this level of shame around it. Like I wasn't supposed to be doing that. I think a lot of us have that and we do need tools. The outdoors is like a good format for like learning more about the bathroom and still it is good to have these conversations and aids and tools like a cooler cloth in order to be able to make it a more comfortable experience for everybody.

Anastasia Allison: 

Exactly. And that's one of the things that inspired me to make Kula feels so intentional when I first started using a pea cloth many years ago, I was using just this old scrap of fabric and it worked just fine. And I would never say don't use a scrap of fabric if, if that feels good to you, I say, go for it. But it didn't feel entirely intentional. And I sort of wondered if it felt more intentional or if it looked more intentional, if maybe it had art on it, would it number one, not only make somebody less squeamish about the idea, but number two, could it become a conversation piece because then people might be more likely to ask, Hey, what's that beautiful thing hanging on your backpack rather than why do you have a gross looking old rag hanging off your backpack, which most people will probably not ask or they'll just grab it and not knowing what it is. And in either case it is an opportunity for conversation. And what I discovered is that Kula is people love to talk about them because they're really proud of them. And that instantly puts other people at ease and gives them permission to ask questions. And it is more appealing to people who might be really squeamish about the idea of just using a piece of fabric where they can't necessarily tell what side they've used or a piece of fabric. That's not necessarily antimicrobial.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Yeah. I love that. You used the word intentional about that too. Because when I see someone who has a cooler cloth or any kind of pee rag that is intentionally on their pack, or like, you know, they pull it out to go use it or whatever the case is, I'm like, wow, they know what works for them. Or at least they're trying to identify things that work for them. And like they're putting thought into what their body needs and what they need mentally and emotionally to feel safe and comfortable outdoors and clean and healthy. And that makes me happy for them because I'm like, whatever the end result is, like, you're thinking about this and investing time and maybe a little bit of resources into finding something that works for you. And I think if more of us started framing it in that way, it's more than self care. It's an intentional practice that we're doing to take care of our bodies. And that has such a huge mental and emotional shift for us too, when we're outside. I think that's great. And cool are such a fun way to be able to do that because yeah, they are really beautiful. And I like what you said too about them being anti-microbial. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Anastasia Allison: 

Yeah, so they are infused with a type of silver ion. Actually, when I started Kula, I knew nothing about anything having to do with textiles, but I did a lot of research on specific antimicrobial treatments for fabric and discovered that there's different types. There's silver, that is based on nanoparticles. There's also silver that's based on ions and silver that is based on nanoparticles can tend to be a little bit more of a problem in wastewater systems. Whereas silver, that comes from ions typically just sort of turns inert. It also lasts for a really, really long time. So typically it would last beyond the life of the Kula. And it essentially is going to keep bacteria from growing within the Kula, not necessarily from your urine, but rather from outside sources. So maybe you set your pack down on the ground and the Kula touches something.

And that's another reason why the Kula snaps in half is so the sort of using side of it, the business side of the Kula is being protected and isn't going to be laid down in the dirt. So there was a lot of learning that went into me coming up with the right fabric for the product. A lot of things that I had absolutely no clue about whatsoever, but when I sort of unofficially surveyed people in the product development phase, one of the things I found was the most important to people was having some sort of an antimicrobial aspect to it. And even if that is just for peace of mind, I think that it is important because it does make people feel less squeamish, especially if they're going to be using the product over and over again. And that's typically what people do with Kula is they'll use it all day long. So you're out on a day hike or backpacking and you would use it again and again over the course of the day and then rinse it in the evening.

Laura Borichevsky: 

At which point you get to show off the artwork and tell your friends and have a conversation about peeing outdoors.

Anastasia Allison: 

Exactly. I mean, it's so fun. I have people sending me photographs of themselves all the time with the product. And the idea for Kula came to me when I was taking a photograph of my ugly scrap of blue fabric pee cloth at sunset in the wind river range in Wyoming, I had decided to take this photograph as a joke, I was going to make a series of holiday cards to give to a friend featuring my pee cloth. And I don't know what that says about me as a friend, but I had thought this was a really funny comical idea. And I was taking this photograph and that's when this idea sort of popped into my head. Why isn't that a real piece of gear? Like I wonder if I could design one that looked intentional and something that people were excited about and something that people were proud to wear on, on their pack so that, um, you know, I taught backpacking and still do for a nonprofit here in Washington called Washington outdoor women.

And one of the things I noticed is that when I would talk about the pee cloth, the squeamish level was high. And I think a lot of that is because I was using a pee cloth that looked like I had pulled it out of a rag bin at a Jiffy lube and people see that on your pack. And it doesn't give you a real snuggly feeling inside or make you think like, wow, I really want to use this old gross looking cloth on my backpack. Didn't feel clean. And I wondered and just became very curious as to what it would be like if something felt, felt intentional. And that led me down a several year rabbit hole of which I'm still in the process of emerging from

Laura Borichevsky: 

Well, yeah. And what I was really interested in was the last time we spoke, he said, you know, in addition to like such a beautiful community that the cooler community is continuing to evolve into, there've also been such interesting comments from people who are maybe like less understanding of why someone would want to use a cooler cloth for peeing outdoors or otherwise. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Cause when you were speaking about some of those comments, I was like, wow, a lot of this is rooted in shame. Right. And we continue to like, see people, try to perpetuate some of that shame around bodies and whether we would even need or want to use a pee rag when obviously a lot of people do. Yeah.

Anastasia Allison: 

It's really interesting. I mean, when I first came up with the idea and shared it with people, I even got a lot of eye rolls and a lot of people just questioning the idea that nobody would ever want to use this. This is so disgusting. And I still, to this day, anytime hula is posted in any Facebook group, it's really interesting to read the comments that range anywhere from this is a total game changer. And I love my Kula. It's my favorite piece of ear two. This is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard of in my life. And why would anybody ever use that? So there is this huge, huge range. And I think it, a lot of it just stems from the fact that people are uncomfortable sometimes maybe making it obvious that they pee outside, right? Because when you have a cooler on your pack, the unsaid word is that at some point I will be squatting down, pulling down my pants and peeing.

And I hope that that is not something that remains this dirty thing that we have to hide. There's also been other people who've reached out to me about ways in which the Kula has changed their life. People who have struggled with urinary tract infections, their entire life in part, because on hikes, they don't pee because they didn't really know how to handle it. And I've gotten many emails from people who have reported that they feel more at ease peeing when they have a cooler, because they feel drier and more comfortable, much less swampy. And so that's exciting for me to learn about, I've also received messages from cis-gender men who use Kula, particularly those who are circumcised have found that using Kula helps with their hygiene on the trail. And then also trans men use Kula and it has made their trail experience or just experience of life.

In general. I don't want to limit Kula just to the trail because a lot of people actually use it at home too, or in a van that it has made going to the bathroom outside a lot more comfortable of an experience for them. That's really exciting for me to hear. I think ultimately I sort of look at Kula and I recognize it's a piece of gear, but I think gear is just a vehicle to an experience where we can connect better with ourselves. And if we are worried about our hygiene or feeling shame or feeling any of those things that oftentimes come up, I think that that can maybe impede our ability to really deeply connect with who we are. And then also just the experience of being outside and being in our bodies. And so hula can create a safer space for that for somebody and enhance somebody's outdoor experience. To me that it's a gift,

Laura Borichevsky: 

It's a gift. Well, and thinking about having a cooler on your backpack or on your person in some way while you're outdoors or just, you know, in the presence of wherever you are, right. It's gear, but it can be a piece of permission to be like, yeah, I'm going to go use this cooler cloth, you know, like, you know, the words out, I pee outside, or I need to pee like everybody else. And I think that there's something really beautiful about that too, or it also, yeah, like you said, it's an outward signifier and for some people that might initially feel like embarrassing that like, oh, this is me announcing to the world that I urinate, like a lot of other people, but also it is permission in that way too.

Anastasia Allison: 

It is. And I do have one Kula print, well, I guess I wouldn't call it a print. It's just a plain black Kula called stealth. And that one is the most popular. I would say with people who are a little bit more aware of maybe they don't want to have a very colorful cooler on their pack or they don't necessarily feel comfortable with having those conversations, but they still understand the benefit of using a pea cloth outside. And that's why we specifically created that one. I also have had many cis-gendered men and trans men also use the stuff Kula and it's pretty nondescript. And so it tends to invite less questions from people. If you see just a black piece of fabric hanging on somebody's bag, you're much less likely to ask about that. Then if you see some really bright, colorful work of art dangling off of somebody's bag.

And so I think it is important to recognize that having open conversations about hygiene, particularly depending on your own specific life situation can sometimes be a very gradual process. And there are probably some people out there that just don't feel safe, announcing that they have a cooler on their backpack. And I think that's okay too. One thing I've also recommended to people if they want to try the Kula, but there or any pee cough, I'll, I'll say that as well. It doesn't have to be a Kula. It can just be any pee cloth in general, keeping something in your pocket also works too. And I understand that there might be people who aren't comfortable having it on their backpack and that's fine. It is just good to sort of understand where you are with respect to talking about hygiene. And I know that for me, it's been a progression.

I think for somebody who literally could not even talk about having my period to sort of not even being able to ask somebody how to pee outside at the age of 26, I think I've come a long way and it did not happen overnight. For me. It was just this sort of gradual learning to love my body and all of the things that it does. And recognizing that those things are not dirty or bad, they just are. And what a gift it is that I have this incredible body that can process things in the way that it does that I can go out there into the wilderness and have these experiences. You know, my sister mayor helps me out with Kula quite a bit, and she wrote something really beautiful once because in the beginning of Kula, people sort of told me that I was crazy to want art on a Kula.

And I was pretty adamant about it. And my sister Mayer wrote something really beautiful once about how there really is nothing more beautiful than our human bodies and that we deserve to celebrate them. And that having art on the Kula is intentionally designed to sort of acknowledge the miracle that each of us is individually. And I do agree with that now. And, and I love having conversations about it now. I think anytime I meet somebody new, I'm talking to them about peeing within the first five minutes. And I don't know what that says about me now, but I've had a complete 180 degree transformation.

Laura Borichevsky: 

I mean, I think it sets everyone up to be able to opt in, right? Because like you said, there are people who, for any reason may not want to talk about how they urinate or that they do, or any type of bathroom stuff. And that might be a safety thing, or it might be something where someone's unlearning or it might be both. Right. But, you know, I do think that it sets a container for people to be able to, if they do feel safe enough to start dipping a toe in the water, maybe that's a bad metaphor, like so to speak. But I remember like one of my first multi-day river trips, it was a trip where I was with pretty much all cis-gender men. And like none of them had talked to me about going to the bathroom out in the river context. I think a lot of people assume that I knew how to go.

And we were on a boat and in a lot of river culture, like you pee in the water, you're not paying in the sand for environmental reasons and it can really impact the shoreline and it smells and it's terrible. So a lot of people pee in the river unless you're in other situations where it's more Alpine, but out here in the desert, you pee in the water and we were on a boat and we weren't really planning on stopping. And so a lot of people, you know, if you have a penis you're standing up and peeing over the side of the boat, I do not. So I was really wondering how this worked. I mean, cause I, you know, and I know there are other pieces of gear that you can have, so you can pee standing up. I did not have any of that with me.

And so my now-husband... at the time, he looked around and he could tell that I had to pee. And he was like, if you have to go to the bathroom, he's like, I don't want to prescribe how you're going to pee, but I can show you, like, I can demonstrate how the women that I know generally pee on river trips in this type of a situation, if you want. And I was like, sure. So he actually got off the back of the boat and showed exactly what they would do. And he was like, this is how they would squat. This is what happens. He's like, try it out. Whatever works best for you is fine. Everyone else will turn around. Like no one will watch. It's perfectly safe if you feel comfortable and I know you have to pee, so this might be the best option for you.

And it was really great because there was all this permission and everyone was like, yeah, like figure it out. We're just going to like, go look over here. And I was like, oh my gosh, what? You know? And I was like, I'm going to end up peeing on your boat. Like there's going to be awful. And they're like, just figure it out. It's totally fine. And I remember feeling so safe in that situation that I already felt so uncomfortable and it made it so much easier in future times be like I have to pee and I'm still figuring it out. So everyone turned around and this might take twice as long as it's supposed to, but I'll get it eventually. And you know, so far I, I kind of have, but it takes a safe container. So I think you create that when you open up those conversations.

Anastasia Allison: 

I agree. And one of the things that I'm no longer ashamed of talking about as well is sort of mishaps or misadventures, kind of like that. I don't know, one person who spends any time outdoors that has not had the, some sort of a misadventure that has to do with going to the bathroom. What I can say from personal experience is don't try to use a pee funnel for the first time at 13,000 feet on Mount Rainier in a windstorm, it didn't go well. I was literally drenched in my own urine. And I remember when that happened, I was just so ashamed of myself. Like, obviously I should have practiced in the shower maybe beforehand, but I didn't. And now I can sort of look back on that and laugh and it lets other people know that it's okay to have had these sort of little mishaps. And like, there is a little bit of trial and error sometimes when you are going to the bathroom outside. And I think that's okay.

Laura Borichevsky: 

You know, one of my other mishaps was when I was doing a lot of sea kayaking in the Northwest and I was normally traveling with the assistant or men and my other friend who was traveling with me, who is assistant or woman. She and I had no idea how we were going to pee. And so we both bought pee funnels. And I was like, can we do it sitting down? Like the other people we travel with too? And we didn't know this. They were like, well, I mean, we could try it on our next trip or we could try it in like about tub and then report back with each other and see how it turned out. And the next weekend we saw each other and we're like, did it work? And we're like, Nope did not. So yeah, I can't use them sitting down, but you know, I was curious and it makes sense like because of gravity, but I was like, who knows? Maybe somehow there's a way it can work in my experience. It has never worked. So try it for yourself if you really need to, but you can also take my word for it.

Anastasia Allison: 

I might have to take your word for that. And I would highly recommend that nobody tests out the windstorm thing because that didn't go real well for me

Laura Borichevsky: 

Sounds terrible. Well, and then it must've been really cold up there too. Oh,

Anastasia Allison: 

It was-- it was so cold. We didn't make it to the summit that day. And it was sort of a, um, it was just sort of a comedy of errors, the whole thing. Um, and the peeing just sort of topped it all off. 

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Thank you so much to Anastasia Allison for her time and honesty in this episode. You can find Anastasia online through her company, Kula Cloth (that’s K-U-L-A) on Instagram @kulacloth or through her website, www.kulacloth.com. You can also find Anastasia and her many talents on her personal Instagram @anastasia.allison.

We’re excited to let you know that we teamed up with Kula Cloth to produce a special edition Kula that you'll definitely want post sex (be it solo or partnered) featuring beautiful art from Natalie Weinberg. Head to kulacloth.com or follow the link in our show notes to get one for yourself!

Lastly, we’ve had a change to our schedule to make space for the wide variety of offerings we’re bringing this community, which we’re revealing later this month! Moving forward, you can catch full episodes of Sex Outside every second Thursday of the month, and every fourth Thursday you can hear brand new Nature Quickies, which are short dives into specific, practical topics about our bodies and the outdoors-- so stay tuned to catch a new one soon. In the meantime, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, making sure you’re subscribed, or by sharing this episode with a friend you think might like it.

Music is by the Wild Wild and UTAH.

I’m Laura Borichevsky. Thanks for joining us. Until next time-- stay fresh, stay dirty, stay safe.

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