Out of Curiosity

featuring writer, traveler, and sexuality specialist Natasha Buffo

brought to you by Janji

Even though sex may never be a completely comfortable topic for many folks to discuss, there are ways to make it easier to talk about. We explore with writer, traveler, and sexuality specialist Natasha Buffo when it comes to healthy communication, gender roles and expectations, and learning about our own bodies through outdoor recreation metaphors. And once again, we find that when the outdoors are involved, sex becomes a little easier to approach in a dialogue.

Featured in this Episode:

Natasha Buffo

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Hosted by Laura Borichevsky.
Cover artwork by Hailey Hirst.
Music by The Wild Wild, UTAH, and wavcrush, licensed via MusicBed.

TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript was lightly edited and created using a transcription service. As such it may contain spelling errors.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Hey all, Laura here. And I try not to do this often but if you’re invested in seeing Sex Outside grow in support of what’s most important to you, I’m asking for a quick favor. We just launched our first-ever community survey for anyone who enjoys Sex Outside content, and it would help us help *you* if you took 5 minutes to complete it after tuning into this episode. As a thank you for those who complete it, we’ll send you a 10% off code to our sticker shop and enter you for the chance to win a big Sex Outside prize pack with all the goodies-- including some new ones we haven’t released into the wild yet.

To take the survey, click the link in our show notes or tap the announcement bar at sexoutsidepodcast.com-- and thanks so much for your time and feedback! We’re excited to keep growing with you.

Natasha Buffo: 

It actually all started, I'm pretty sure, with my first Human Sexuality class at university.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Natasha Buffo went to the UC Santa Barbara. When she initially enrolled, her area of focus was undeclared. But it didn’t take long before she found something that caught her attention.

Natasha Buffo: 

I took a course-- it's 152A. And the reason I remember the number is because this course is actually pretty well known at UC Santa Barbara because the professors are a married couple, Janice and John Baldwin, and it's this huge lecture hall. And I don't even know why I signed up for the class, probably just, you know, out of curiosity. And that's really where the journey of my education and interest in human sexuality and gender began.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

And once she got going, Natasha realized how foundational learning about the human experience was, and decided to dedicate more of her time and energy to learning about sexuality.

Natasha Buffo: 

From that, I actually decided to major in Sociology, which was completely based off of interest. And I found that sociology was an area of study that applies to everybody in everyday life, because it is the study of people. Yet the majority of the population are clueless and have zero education in it. And that's just in the general case of sociology when it comes to human sexuality, I mean, it's completely relevant to everyone's life because otherwise we wouldn't be here. So I just dove in and it was pretty fantastic. The first courses, you know, like I said, more of a big lecture hall and more of your standard college course with tests and homework and all that. And then the next courses were a more small-- 20-person, I'd say-- class where the first one, we would go through a full book and each week a different student would actually teach that topic of that chapter, which was really neat. And we'd have really open discussions around sexuality.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Natasha’s journey in education around human sexuality has not only led to her professional passions coming to life as a writer, but her experiences in school also demonstrated that conversations about sex *can* happen openly-- that they’re not as “off limits” as we might have been brought up to believe, or socialized to think.

Even though, as Natasha mentioned, learning about our bodies is so essential to each of us-- not everyone gets the same opportunity to dive into sexuality education the way Natasha did. In fact, in the big scheme of things, few people do.

And that’s exactly why I’m going to start this episode by saying something that might seem counterintuitive to what we aim to do here, so bear with me. But sex and sexuality may *never* be something that is completely comfortable to talk about. And that’s okay. It’s a highly-personal, unique set of topics that can leave us feeling vulnerable. So it’s natural to feel like sex, even with more information and practice in discussion, may never feel like an easy thing to hold a conversation around. But there are *so* many things that can make it *more* comfortable, and easier, to not only express yourself, but to ultimately have conversations that allow you to have safer, more fulfilling sexual experiences, too. And it starts with a willingness to learn, experiment, and approach sexuality with a little bit of curiosity.

So-- time to get curious. Let’s explore together. I’m Laura Borichevsky, and this is Sex Outside.

Natasha Buffo: 

You can be in a wonderful sexual relationship with a partner and also have a wonderful sexual relationship on your own. And I think that's really healthy.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

As a traveler and outdoors person, Natasha’s work has evolved over time and lately she’s been looking at sexuality through a lens of the outdoors, which she writes about from time to time.

But her first experiences writing about sexuality for an audience, while she was still in college, were quite different from what she does now.

Natasha Buffo: 

We started to write for the sex info online website, which is UC Santa Barbara's own website that is completely created and kept up and edited by students of UC Santa Barbara taking that course. And so I had the opportunity to come up with articles and write them and put them on the website and also to answer questions from people around the world about human sexuality. So that is where really where it all began. And then continuing in the sociology degree, I took courses on gender and I learned so much. I read some amazing books, Middlesex, and She's Not There, I think, were the two books we read. We watched videos and just talked about simple things. I'll never forget a moment in class when we were talking about scarves and this one male in my class who actually happened to be a friend of mine, was so appalled at the idea of a male wearing a scarf. And it was such an eye-opener as to how strong gender norms really are. And yeah, so that's where it began.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Totally. Well, and you know, this whole conversation just around communication style in general is one of the reasons that you and I are chatting right now, because I was very much drawn to your passion for having, you know, no matter where we are, having more open conversations around sex and more honest conversations around sex. And, you recently wrote a piece in SISU Magazine called “Sex is an Adventure”. And I'm curious if you want to tell me a little bit about what inspired that piece to begin with.

Natasha Buffo: 

Absolutely. I would love to tell you. That piece was inspired by one of the most uncomfortable experiences of my life, especially around sexuality. And I stay pretty vague in describing the situation out of choice, but basically I found myself in a situation where I was kind of doing my usual thing of trying to share knowledge and open conversations and in an environment that, that had been really well received in the past and this particular time, it was not well received by some people-- not by everyone. And I felt so much shame and embarrassment and really disappointment and sadness because the intention of me trying to make people more comfortable with talking about sex and more educated for some people, the opposite effect happened, and it made people very uncomfortable and that felt horrible because it was never my intention, right? And it also... I felt this really deep shame around the fact that I feel very comfortable using very scientific terms and speaking about human sexuality, not in a raunchy or derogatory way, but in, you know, very by the book, what we've learned, proper terms and everything, but being perceived by others as immoral and disgusting.

And it really shook me to my core. And my immediate reaction was to just put a wall up and close it up and stop talking about sex basically to like stop being who I am in that area and hide away and not have these conversations anymore because of what happened. And that was my immediate reaction. And so I kind of just closed myself off and closed myself up. And then I don't know how long after I had the exact opposite reaction, which was no, I need to put it out there. I just have to find the right audience that wants to hear it because people out there want to have these conversations and they need to hear this and they need to be educated and I just need to find the right place to do it.

And for whatever reason, I thought to reach out to SISU. I'm a Coalition Snow ambassador, so I am connected to Jen Gurecki and the rest of that crew. And I pitched some ideas for an article in regards to human sexuality. And so I was really going the opposite direction because CCU magazine and coalition snow are, are well known for really breaking the norms and being very open and raw about gender and sexuality and stereotypes. And especially in regards to female-identifying, trans, and underrepresented groups in the ski industry. And so I was like, well, if, if anybody would be interested in this topic, maybe it's them. And fortunately I pitched a couple ideas and Jen was interested. And so it really pushed me in that opposite direction of what my initial reaction was. And thank goodness, because that's what I needed. And what was really rad was that that ended up actually being my first printed article in a magazine due to COVID taking away some of the other opportunities that I had already landed.

And it was a really cool thing to come across that my first printed article was about human sexuality. And at first I thought it was kind of a, like, “how funny”, but then I reflected back on my education and, and how magical to have taken a topic of interest that I decided to major in just out of curiosity. And actually when I had no idea of how I could turn it into a career and no intention of doing it and ended up actually being a part of my career and being a kind of a catalyst, he knows, uh, you know, first piece that I could really brag about to other people. And, you know, it led to another podcast that I was interviewed on and led to this podcast. And so it's really just continuing to move forward, taking a very negative experience for me into an incredibly positive experience.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Well, yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I love that you did double down and return to the thought of like, no, there's a reason that I was talking about sex and sexuality and doing so in a way that is more science and data informed and relates to, you know, the biology of human bodies and anatomy. And, you know, we can get more into that later because I know that, you know, that's another part of healthy communication is and understanding our bodies, right? It's being able to talk about it and say the words that maybe are uncomfortable and use slang instead, or just not say anything at all, but I love that you did that. And I would love to walk through, you know, there were some major themes,with the piece that you wrote that really parallel a lot of what we're trying to do with Sex Outside, which is bring in conversations, open honest conversations about sex, sexuality, sensuality, desire, pleasure, gender, you know, relationships, all of it-- and look at it through that outdoor lens because that's where a lot of us can meet on some kind of common ground, right, and find something to relate to.

And if we, if we can't relate amongst ourselves, we can relate to something in nature regarding that. And you did that beautifully with this piece. And, you know, in that-- I know one of the big topics that you and I have talked about before as well, but one of the big topics in your piece relates to generalizations and stereotypes and how that can really get in the way of healthy communication and healthy sexual relationships with ourselves, our own selves or with others. So, yeah. What are your thoughts on that, and what did you kind of pull apart there in your piece, and what have you been thinking about it since?

Natasha Buffo: 

Yeah, the generalizations and stereotypes in relation to gender or anatomy. Because really we can talk about so many different things, whether you're stereotyping based off of the body parts you are born with, or you're stereotyping based off of the gender that you're presenting as, because both of those will come into play in regards to sexuality-- it gets me fired up, honestly. And I think a big part of it is my own personal experience because I'm a cisgender female. I was born with female body parts and I present as female and I represent myself as female. And you're told through whether it's the media, you know, you watch movies, there's all these jokes or your education that female libido is going to be far less than the male. And the male is always the one who is initiating sexual activity. And of course, right now we're talking about a heterosexual relationship and that's my experience, but that's what we see in media is heterosexual male initiating two female boys when they're young girls, don't, you know, all of these stereotypes.

And that was not my experience. My experience has always been having a very highly libido, very high interest in sex, very high desire. I discovered the magic of my body parts very early on. I call myself an “early explorer”, but in reality, and I, you know, I've had some of these conversations with other women is the only reason that I think of myself as an early explorer is because we don't talk about it when we were little girls. We weren't talking about those things. Maybe little boys were more often because it was more acceptable or it's more out there, but most women don't discover that they were doing the same thing that other women were doing as a teenager until later on in life in our thirties, when we actually talk about that stuff. And so that's something that's just, I've personally related to, but then going into even greater and bringing it to the, the metaphor and the relation to adventure is we also stereotype when it comes to outdoor adventure.

And I think we're making progress in this, but there's still room for improvement of centering a lot of males in the outdoors as the athletes, as going big as doing the most adventurous, the most extreme and that women are going to be, or female identifying are going to be more reserved and more hesitant and less strong. And that's just not the case. It's very individual to everybody. You can have males that are less interested in outdoor sports, and you can have females that are far more interested and it's going to be different with every sport and different with every person. And as much as we're making progress, when it comes to the outdoor industry and trying to reduce stereotypes when it comes to gender, why are we not doing that when it comes to our sexuality? And so I really like to hone in on the fact that we are all beautifully unique when it comes to our interest in outdoors, when it comes to our sexuality and we really need to embrace our individuality and try not to let anything that we've been taught where you've seen it in movies or read about, we really just need to embrace our individuality and explore it.

And that really goes into kind of a next big topic of that article, which is exploring individually and with our partners if we choose.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

We'll be back to hear more from Natasha, after this.

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Natasha Buffo: 

I think a lot of people view, “Oh, if we're talking about sexuality, we're talking about partners. And so if I don't have a partner, then you know, I'm just on my own in this own little world. And I don't have an active sex life.” And that's just, just not true on so many levels.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

If you’re feeling called out right now by that honesty from Natasha-- that’s okay. A lot of us have been taught that sex happens when we’re partnered and is the driving reason behind exploring our sexuality and pleasure. But Natasha has some great thoughts to counter that narrative. 

Natasha Buffo: 

You can be in a wonderful sexual relationship with a partner and also have a wonderful sexual relationship on earth on your own. And I think that's really healthy. And it's, you know, partly for just having a relationship with your own body that's really positive. And it's partly for exploring and finding out what you like and what you don't like on your own, so that you can share it with your partner and that might make those communications and those experiences more comfortable. If you've already explored a little bit on your own, rather than just everything that you're discovering about yourself with another person. I think that can be really intimidating and more challenging because if you don't know what you like, it's going to be harder maybe to figure it out with another person. But if you do have a better idea of what you like, then you can communicate that a little bit and kind of guide and whether it's verbal or, or with your hands, you know, but that exploration is really important to figure out what feels good and what doesn't.

And I really like to hone in on that as well as figuring out what you like is important, but also knowing what you don't like and communicating that is really important too, because if you have things that, you know, for sure are not something you're comfortable with, and you don't tell your partner that you're going to get in a situation where you're uncomfortable and they might have no idea. And all of a sudden you're kind of like locked up and frozen, and that excitement turns into anxiety and fear, and that's not great. So if you're able to communicate that in advance, then you know where those lines already know, we can go into greater depths of having a safe word and all that, but really just thinking about that exploration and knowing your: “I definitely love this, I definitely don't like this.” And then there's that in-between of, “I'm curious about this. Maybe I've never tried it, maybe it's something I think I'm interested in.” Maybe it's something you've seen in a film, whether it's pornographic or just a movie or a book. And you're just kind of curious, and it's, again, going back to that exploration, and maybe you want to bring that up to your partner, or maybe you explore it on your own. So I know I'm going in a lot of different places. I don't know if I'm making that very clear or if I'm all over the place on that topic.

Laura Borichevsky: 

No, I mean, I think it's a really big topic, but I like what you said. And again-- time and time again, I've seen since Sex Outside has started and since reading your article as well, just how much more clarity, honestly, I think we, as a collective and I know I personally can get from using the outdoors as a metaphor. So for example, like if you have a mental or physical list of sports and outdoor activities that you like and ones that maybe you don't like, and you've tried them and you know, you don't like them, or you just know that it scares you and you really don't want to do it. And maybe someday you will. But like right now you don't, and that's very valid. Right. And then there's maybe, yeah, things that you're interested in getting into, but you haven't explored yet. And you know, when the timing's right or the opportunity presents itself, you will like, if you haven't done that yet for yourself, maybe start there and be like, let's think about sports that I want to do or activities outside that I want to do.

Like, because honestly for a lot of people, and I will say, you know, yeah, due to our Western culture here in the States, especially, but also worldwide in general, like, and again, broad generalizations, but women have very many times been socialized to not talk about like their needs, wants, and desires and to express those. So even things like outdoor activities, there are so many other folks that I know who are women in my life, who yeah, just have a hard time expressing to male friends or counterparts what they do or do not want to do just when it comes to going outside. And they end up having a bad experience because they didn't talk about it or they didn't, they didn't assert themselves. Or they have someone in their life who won't listen to them, which is a whole other problem, you know, and that, that's another topic for probably another day.

Because that's a big conversation too, but I think that starting there is great. And if, you know, if you even just want to practice that with a partner, you know, if you have a partner in your life and you're like, “Hey, let's just talk about activities that we like, you know, outside and things we're curious about or things we don't like and why”, that's great. And maybe a good entry point. So that the next time you're like, “Okay, I want to sit down and think about this through a lens of sex and sexual activities and behaviors and things I'm interested in and my desires” as you get to know your body more, then that's great. And you can use that same type of a conversation for yourself and anyone else that you're with. And maybe it'll go a little bit smoother.

Natasha Buffo: 

Yeah. And all of that, it makes me actually think back to a piece of that article actually. And I feel like it's such a good example is that we related backpacking and anal play. And I find that even the word anal people are very uncomfortable with, but the fact is we all have anuses. So it's very relatable regardless of the sex you were born with the January you identify as, or the sexuality that you engage in and anal play has so many different facets and levels to it, and it can be very intimidating, but it also can be a big point of curiosity for people. And some people are very comfortable and experienced with it. And some people are very intimidated by it. And what I find from my background that is using anal play is a great example, is there's a lot of steps that you need to take in order to actually get to anal intercourse safely and comfortably and enjoyably.

And so it's such a good example to relate to the outdoor adventures, because if you think about backpacking, there is, you know, you need a lot of the right tools and you know, you can't just go from, “I've never gone on a hike before” to backpacking 10 miles. Like there are steps in between that you need to test out and have the right gear and used to and play around with. And what I really like about that example is in the article I talked about, say that you're, you're interested in backpacking, but you've never done it before. So it's kind of scary and kind of intimidating, but you have this curiosity, right? And maybe if you're lucky a friend or a partner is experienced in it. And so they can kind of introduce you and guide you and give you a little tips on what gear you do need.

And I love that we talked about, okay, so to start with, you can go camping. Maybe even you backpack a mile in, very simple, and you bring as much comfort items as you possibly can. Or maybe you start with car camping and you bring a blow mattress and a duvet rather than sleeping on a ground pad and a sleeping bag. And that's really your easing into, if you relate it to anal, like maybe you're on your own and you have a finger and you just do some stimulation on the outside and maybe you continue on from there. And you know, there's so many different levels to that experience, but the most important part really goes into the communication of each time that you're communicating you communicate your curiosity. You come up with a plan on what's kind of my first level, whether I'm experimenting on my own or with a partner.

And then after that experience, the really important part that you are touching on is expressing how went, because you might go backpacking, you might try in a play and you might really enjoy it and say, Oh great. That was a really good experience. I want to go to the next level, or it might not be a good experience. And you might think, “Alright, maybe this isn't for me. Or maybe we need to try a different version of this”, but if you try it out and you don't express the enjoyment of their discomfort, then there's really nowhere to go from there. And that's where you get into really tough situations. And your sexuality is if you aren't actually analyzing your preferences and your experience, and then, and then sharing what, what you found from it.

Laura Borichevsky: 

Yeah. Well, I really agree with what you said. And also I would imagine that for some people listening to this, they're like, “Wow, all this communication sounds like a lot of work and it also sounds really not sexy”. I know you have thoughts about that. What do you think about that and why do you think it is that we often do equate communication about sex as not being a part of the sex or an additive, you know, like an addition and a value add to the sex?

Natasha Buffo: 

Yeah, that is, I think, the most important part. And I know you're, you're gathering information from other people. I'm like, why is it hard to talk about sex? And it is really important to be able to figure out a way to communicate with other people, but it's really hard to find the right people, person, time, place in order for it not to feel like it is taking away from the spontaneity or the moment that you're in. And the number one thing that I always think about that I've actually been doing quite a lot of practicing with my partner is yes, it's great to have verbal communication around your sexuality, but don't expect to do it while you're naked in bed in the moment that is maybe more of the time for those nonverbal communications, obviously, you know, depending on your interests, there can definitely be a lot of verbal communication, but those aren't the moments where you sit down and go down your list of things that you want to try, or the things that are hard no’s for you.

You tend to not want to not do those when you're naked in bed. And it was kind of similar again, if we want to use backpacking or camping as an example is when you're out in the woods and you're in the environment, you should be in the moment and experiencing, right. And obviously communicating if, if in the moment you are uncomfortable, but that's maybe not the time to say, “Oh my gosh, I never want to try backpacking!”, you know, or you, you want to have those conversations before and after when you're not in the moment. And so really having a time set aside to have a check-in with your partner and look forward to sharing some of those things. I actually recently did this. So it was really fun to have a list of things that you want to try. And it might, it might be things that you've never tried before.

It might be things you have no idea whether you're going to like it, but just having this list and saying, “Hey, you know, this might be fun. That might be fun.” And your partner also has a list and seeing what matches or it might be that you didn't think of something and the person you might be involved with, they bring up something that, Oh, you're like, Oh, actually, that sounds kind of interesting. I want to try that too. And really creating a kind of non-threatening noncommittal conversation around really that curiosity, exploration, and also again, making sure to express the things that you're not into and it's, you know, to die, try to dive deeper into why communication is seen as such a negative thing. And I struggled with it as well as really, you know, you're not supposed to talk about sex. And I think that must really go back to our sex education.

And actually when I wrote this article, I interviewed a friend of mine that is a marriage and family therapist who specializes and LGBTQ+ relationships. And she had such a good point that when it comes to sex education, we were never taught how to communicate. That was not part of our sex education. So we're really kind of making it up or getting help from counselors or getting help from resources like books and online on how to actually communicate with our partners. So I think that's part of the fear that comes along with it. And the other piece that I think comes into play is that I don't even know where this comes from, whether it comes from movies or what, but we are expected when it comes to sex to be Olympic athletes, without any of the training or education or communication. We're just supposed to magically, when we become interested in human sexuality and we come interested in, in partners, our own stimulation and pleasure, we're just supposed to know exactly what to do and be amazing at it.

And if you're not amazing at it, something's wrong with you. And that's just ludicrous. I mean, again, if we refer back to outdoor adventures, are you supposed to be a perfect Alex Honnold climber without training, without education, without trying without great partners. It's ridiculous. And so we really need to realize that without taking those steps, like we do everywhere else, we're probably going to miss out on a lot of positive experiences. And when it comes to any individual, whether they're communicating with friends or communicating with a partner, I don't think that we can, like, I can't tell you that communication is going to lead to a great sex life. I think you're going to hear that and it's not going to change really your attitude. I think it really comes down to experience and finding somebody that you can have a positive conversation with and seeing those positive results to realize that it's worth it.

Unfortunately, this typically happens after we have already gotten to a more challenging negative experience in our sexuality where you typically don't have these conversations with everything's great. We wait until something very frustrating or very upsetting, very heartbreaking happens. And then we discover, Oh, we should have been talking about this and maybe, maybe we would have avoided this. And so it's, it's really something that I think people need to experiment with and find that person that they can talk to. And if you don't have a friend or a partner that you do feel safe or comfortable talking, counselors are there and you do not need to go with a partner, you can explore your sexuality and your communication around it, on your own with the therapist. And that is a tool that I really, really recommend people using. If you don't feel like you have somebody else in your life, you can trust.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Thank you so much to Natasha Buffo for her time and honesty in this episode. To see more from Natasha, you can find her on Instagram @dirtandtears, or see more of her work on her website, dirtandtears.com. Also-- our friends at Coalition Snow and SISU Magazine were *super* kind and wanted to let this community read Issue 7, “Lawful Bodies”, for free. It includes Natasha’s article, “Sex Is An Adventure”, as well as many other incredible articles and resources. To get access to Issue 7 of SISU Magazine for free, you can tap the special link in our show notes, and thanks again to Coalition Snow and SISU for sharing this issue with us!

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You can catch full episodes of Sex Outside every other week on Thursdays, and on the opposite weeks, you can hear brand new Nature Quickies, which are short, 5-minute dives into specific, practical topics about our bodies and the outdoors-- so stay tuned to catch a new one next Thursday. In the meantime, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, making sure you’re subscribed, or by sharing this episode with a friend you think might like it.

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Music is by the Wild Wild, UTAH, and wavcrush.

I’m Laura Borichevsky. Thanks for joining us. Until next time!

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